Connecting Our Conversation: Nonviolence for Lent Part 1

In this episode, Rev. Dr. Shannon Vance-Ocampo talks with Rev. Trina Portillo of Burlington Presbyterian Church in Burlington, MA about the fifth pillar of Kingian nonviolence: Avoid Internal Violence of the Spirit as well as External Physical Violence. 

Together, they reflect on ministry, immigration justice, public witness, righteous anger, and the discipline of nonviolence in a time of fear and harm.

Resources mentioned in this episode:
Bearing Witness website: https://bearingwitnessne.org/
Bearing Witness Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1459429958807792/
Weekly witness: Wednesdays, 11 a.m.–1 p.m. at 1000 District Avenue, Burlington, MA
Burlington Presbyterian Church: https://burlingtonpres.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Well, hello everyone. Uh, this is Shannon Vance Ocampo. I use she and her pronouns, and I serve as the general presbyter for the Presbytery of Southern New England. And this is Connecting Our Conversations, our podcast space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us to deepen discipleship. We've taken a bit of a hiatus from the podcast these last few months, but we are coming back with a spring season. Our first two episodes will be focused on nonviolence and the last two weeks of Lent for our Presbytery study, Nonviolence for Lent. And this is the first of two of those focused episodes. The Presbytery of Southern New England is a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church USA. So today we're going to be talking to a ministry friend and colleague of mine next door in the Presbytery of Boston, the Reverend Trina Portillo, who is the pastor of the Presbyterian Church in Burlington, which is in Massachusetts, just over the border from our Presbytery. And Trina has served this congregation and community for the last 10 years since 2016. And like me, she's a graduate of McCormick Theological Seminary and the College of Worcester. So that's always fun to have somebody both places. Also in Boston Presbytery. So we're so glad to have her here with us today to talk about our theme of nonviolence and how she's living it out in her local ministry context. So welcome, Trina.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Good to be here with you.

unknown 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Thanks for inviting me.

Meet Rev Trina Portillo

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Absolutely. So we'll start with introductions. I've said a few things about you, but tell us more. Tell us about who you are and what you're up to in ministry and anything you'd like to share.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Um, so you said a lot already in the intro, but yes, my name is Trina, and I use sheher pronouns. Um I have been living in Massachusetts since 2014. And um my husband is an immigrant, he's from El Salvador, and we have one daughter um who is in high school now. And so uh what else do I say about me and my ministry here? Um I don't know what's the church like tells like a congregation. The so the congregation here is when when I started here was a very multicultural diverse congregation. Um, we have people who have been in this area forever, and we have people who are very recent arrivals to the US and to Massachusetts. Um many of our members are from West Africa, Cameroon and Ghana specifically. Um, and then there are smatterings of people from different parts of the world um that have found their church home here. And since um 2020, like post-pandemic life, the church has gotten quite a bit smaller. And um I would say it's kind of less diverse than it used to be as well. And so um we have recently in the last two years, about two years ago, um, a Cameroonian church asked if they could start a ministry here. And so our congreg our church has hosted a congregation of the Presbyterian Church of Cameroon, which was then like formalized formally organized as a PCC congregation um last year. And so that's been interesting to see the development of an immigrant-centered community. Um, and it has also impacted the diversity that we had seen in some of our own PC USA congregations in the Presbytery of Boston, as people have kind of been drawn to a church that they feel like is closer to home for them, you know. Right. Yeah. So that's been an interesting journey.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

It's really interesting. And you know, for those who are listening from Southern New England, it's a bit of a segue from what we're gonna talk about today. But um, there are denominations that are our sister denominations, Presbyterian denominations in um other parts of the world who are now founding churches in the United States of um where they have large uh groups of uh folks that um have come here as immigrants, right? And so we do see that in some parts of the larger PCUSA where we have churches like this one you're describing from the Prestonian Church in Cameroon. So it's a church that's in a PCUSA church building, right? But it's um uh the congregation is a member of a denomination in another country. So it's a really interesting kind of thing that's happening around the PCUSA in some parts. And I think uh we don't always sort of notice it until it happens here, right? But yeah, um, so I just uh they call it the diaspora.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, the diaspora diaspora congregations in the in the United States.

Diaspora Churches And Shared Space

SPEAKER_02 5:59

So yeah, yeah, it's really interesting and it's it brings up all sorts of interesting um issues and ideas for us, and uh um, you know, at the as we know, the Prestonian Church in Cameroon is really large. Um they're growing so much. And uh I'm not sure if that if it's it's either the Preserian Church in Cameroon or the Prestonian Church in Ghana. I hate to misspeak, but um, one of them I believe has a larger membership than uh the PC USA does.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Uh that wouldn't surprise me at all.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah, yeah, one of them does. I can't remember which maybe both of them. They probably have to be both of them. But I remember uh hearing about that a couple of years ago. So yeah, so it's um it's really uh interesting to see uh you know how our sort of global world is interacting. So yeah. That's really great, Trina. Thank you for creating a space for them and a place for them to land here and that hospitality. So so as we uh were talking before we get on the podcast, we're doing this Lenten uh series for our Presbytery around the theme of nonviolence. And we wanted to do that this year because, of course, um issues in the public square are so big for us these days in the United States, and how do we show up authentically as people of faith, as Christians responsibly? And uh, what does that look like? And so we're taking a look over these six weeks at the six kind of core principles or pillars. They're they're called different things in different parts of the literature of Kingan nonviolence, which is the type of nonviolence that the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King taught here in the United States, which comes out of Gandhian nonviolent practice, um, and these six pillars, and it works out nicely because there's six Sundays in Lent. Um, and so we're headed into the fifth Sunday of Lent, and uh, so we're gonna be talking about that fifth pillar in a little bit. But I wonder if you could share a little bit about in your ministry or in your formation, what has nonviolence meant for you, both personally and as a leader, as a pastor. Um, and how's that showing up in your world today?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Um I think since since my time in college, actually, I think that um Dr. Chuck Cammer was one of my influences and first teaching me about or teaching, exposing me to nonviolence and liberation theology in particular. Um, he was a religious studies professor at the College of Worcester, um, and very formative. I think his classes and his his teaching, you know, in my life were big influence. Um so that was where I started learning more about uh the development of liberation theologies in different parts of the world from Latin America, Gustavo Gutierrez, and um then it spread from there all around the world to different communities. There's Muharista theology, there's Asian, um, you know, I don't know, African, there's every different every different culture and group has approached it through its own lens, like through its own unique experiences. Um and so I think learning about learning about that and how it um has influenced uh people's interpretation of what Christianity is and how we are called to live as Christians in the world, um, and how that uh is influenced by our particular experiences and um lenses, I guess, you know, how how different people have experienced the world. So that was a really big influence for me. I took a course, I don't remember right now if it was in college or seminary, but it was a course on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and studying their writings together, like side by side.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

That was at Worcester, yeah. We I took that class at Worcester. Did you take that? Was it Worcester? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Okay, yeah. Well, good. So uh that's still one that I really remember. And um the book uh uh the collection of Dr. King's writings from that that we used is a huge volume called Strength to Love, and it's still one that I like refer to regularly um and go to. And and I think that um, you know, we we meaning white Christians tend to reference Dr. King a lot and and say, you know, point to his teachings about you know, love only, you know, hate cannot drown out hate, only love can do that. Um peace is not merely the absence of tension, but the presence of there are a lot of quotes that we can go to and pull out in our minds that are sort of the the um I don't want to say the peaceful version of Dr. King.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah, that the Dr. King we've sanitized over the years.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

The sanitized version, thank you. Yes, and I think it's really important um to note that really Dr. King's critiques of the society in which he lived are still very relevant to the society that we are seeing today, that we are you know up against the same systemic injustices and this inner inner woven um threads of militarism, um, economic injustice and racism that he was pointing to are still what we are you know dealing with today. We're still uh so I think when we when we sanitize Dr. King to like take out all of this kind of the the really very pointed and very sharp um critiques and analysis that he was offering and that he was writing about, uh it really strips away a lot of what his the power of his message um and teachings really still have to share with us today.

Kingian Nonviolence And MLK Unfiltered

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yeah, yeah. I know people don't like to sort of they they do they want to sort of, you know, his speech on the mall in Washington or some of these these pieces, but uh, you know, I'm always pointing people to his speech at Riverside exactly one year before he was assassinated, right? Where he spoke out against the Vietnam War and had such a sharp critique of militarism and violence. And um, those are, you know, um uh pieces that uh folks don't necessarily always want to interact with, or his just critique in general, which was so on point and I think is still so prescient today, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

About how whiteness shows up and uh into avoidance and um uh letter from the Birmingham Jail was very directed toward white moderates or white conservatives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Yeah, and even his his last full book was completely on that topic, right? And so it's uh uh you know, I think those those pieces we've maybe not listened to as much. But the and even taking apart, you know, my goal this with this lunch series has been really picking apart the particular six pieces that make up nonviolent practice and how challenging they may or may not be for us. Um uh really trying to just look at them in a little bit of a deeper dive than usual. Um, so uh so that that's it's been one of my hopes that we we you know go back and reacquaint ourselves with those pieces or acquaint ourselves with them for the first time, because they hold immense power still today. So I know one of the things that you've been doing sort of in in local nonviolent practice is there's this um uh weekly vigil that's going on outside of um an uh immigration and customs enforcement facility in Burlington, uh, the town where your church is. And so just tell me the story of that. I know it's been going on for a while and has interfaith components to it, but tell me about this witness and what's happening there.

Why A Vigil Outside ICE

SPEAKER_01 14:40

It does, it's called uh Bearing Witness at ICE. And there is an ICE facility, as you noted. It is um, it's not a detention facility, it's an enforcement and removal office. So it's an innocuous-looking office building in uh an office park next to this huge mall here, the Burlington Mall. Um, and there are other, you know, businesses and offices and restaurants and things all along that same street. And you would never know what it was unless you, you know, unless you were going there for that reason. There's no like big sign out front or something that says immigration or whatever. Um so it has been leased to the government since 2008. It is privately held by a local landowner. Um and it uh so yeah, since 2008, the the federal government has been using that as their um regional headquarters for ICE um Department of Homeland Security and ICE operations. Since the new Trump administration um came back into office in 2025, uh there have been noticeable upticks in the number of people who've been um held there, like they come for regular check-in appointment, you know, somewhere in their immigration process, they're maybe in the asylum process, or they have some sort of temporary status and they have to come for regular appointments. Those used to be routine, a lot of people used to be able to do them online actually, and now um they have become both more frequent and required to come in person, and sometimes people are detained at those appointments. Other reasons that people are sent there is they were picked up somewhere else in this area, it could be anywhere in um New England, actually. People have been picked up in Rhode Island and Connecticut and Massachusetts and New Hampshire, and they're brought there um initially for processing before they are sent to other detention facilities um around well, around the country, actually. We don't know where people are being sent. So there is only one detention facility in Massachusetts, that's the Plymouth County Correction Center. Um and other than that, people are sent all over the place. So last year, actually, this today was the 48th week that we have met as bearing witness. Um, it was started by a couple, Jared and Lori Berrison, uh, who initially were coming, just the two of them, and standing out in front of the ICE facility and saying, you know, we we are standing here to literally bear witness to what is happening to our immigrant neighbors, community, and um and people throughout Massachusetts. So I'm not even sure how long it was, just the two of them who were coming there. And then over the course of the last year, uh more of us started to hear about it. I mean, more people started to hear about it. Some of the local clergy, myself, um Reverend Andrew Harris, Rabbi Susan Abramson, um our Unitarian colleagues from the town of Bedford, um Reverend Jamie Henson-Rieger and John Gibbons. We all started coming regularly, you know, and showing up every week. And so at some point, Jared and Lori said, you know, this is getting to be a lot. Like organization saying there were more people coming and just sort of more things to manage, right? Like logistically. We had a bunch of signs, who was gonna take the signs every week, all those kinds of things. So it just sort of started growing, and um they were looking for help uh as organizers. So then we formed this organizing committee, and it's Jared and Lori and some of the local clergy. Um, I do want to make a side note here that during the first Trump administration, we also had a witness or a week a regular vigil at that same facility. Um, we called it Jericho Walks at that time, and we used to walk literally around the building, um, which they don't allow us to do anymore. Um interesting. Yeah, not allowed to do that. Um but we we did have a presence up there um during the first Trump administration as well. And then under Biden, we sort of we weren't as regular, you know, we weren't there all the time. Um so from bearing witness, which is every Wednesday uh from 11 to 1, since uh I guess since last summer, other groups have started to organize similar witnesses or vigils on the other days of the week. So we now have a presence there Monday through Friday, and there is another there are two groups that also meet on Saturdays. So recently um a volunteer has started, she's organizing like a food distribution, and they have some resources for people who are coming out of the building. You know, people have come for their appointments, and she has some bags of groceries there if people need people just want to take some extra food with them. Um, someone has been donating teddy bears for some of the kids that come out. I had a really powerful interaction last week um with a family from Brazil, and it was uh the parents, two daughters, and I think um another woman who was with them, I don't know if she was a family member, was there to interpret or, you know, was there for for support in some way. And they came out and everyone was in tears. And I asked them if they were okay, and they said yes. And I asked if someone had been kept, you know, detained, and they said no, but they have to come back. So that's the thing. It's like you go through these uh you're going through all these steps, right? And immigrants are going through all these steps to try to follow the rules and do the right thing and follow the processes that's been laid out for them. But the government keeps changing those rules and moving the benchmarks and taking away things that used to be legal statuses like TPS or asylum seeking and all these things. It's like you can't. win. Right. You can't win in this game, you know? And it's not a game, it's people's lives. So um, you know, I was able to talk with them and I was there in that in that capacity. I was there as a chaplain that day, actually. So the Mass Council of Churches has taken on the role of organizing chaplain presence. And we're trying to have um at least two chaplains present there from about 730 or 8 in the morning when people start to show up for their check-in appointments until around 11 in the morning. That's kind of when things peter out, you know, like um and I think that's been really powerful too. So that's a separate initiative from what's happening with with bearing witness. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah. And so tell me about these witnesses. They're obviously they're nonviolent witnesses. Um what's been the discussion in the faith communities about that and about how they're showing up um I'm not sure what the discussion in the faith communities have been.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

There's a lot of faith communities who are participating. Yeah I can think and that's been great. I mean we had a day last month that was um I don't want to get the name wrong but I think it was it there was like a whole day that was organized against ICE. And so there were different Jewish organizations that were represented as the speakers we've had various politicians come and speak um community organizers come and speak so every the the way that the format I should say is we have um we have some music leaders who as people are gathering they'll be playing some music and sometimes people are you know sing along uh then at about 1115 the organizing committee gets up and we we have a a weekly uh script that we follow to let people know about safety and where we can stand and what the police have asked us to do and not do and um how to not engage with some of the pro-ICE supporters who have been showing up in recent weeks and um stand they are they stand on the opposite side of the street and it's usually a small group but a very noisy group um and so we we've included in the in our weekly reminders to people like please don't engage they're just here to get content for their right wing social media channels and you don't want to you don't want to be that content you know like they're just gonna twist whatever well meaning thing we try to we try to say to them so we do have um some of those reminders then we introduce the guest speaker um sometimes Jared is very good at preparing a story about you know he'll research news stories about immigrants who have been detained there and share someone's personal story um and then the speaker comes to the microphone and then we always close by asking people three things and those three things are um do you are you are you here to support immigrants uh do you believe in the US Constitution and do you believe in nonviolence so we always remind people about you know the principles of nonviolence and um we've heard actually from a lot of our attendees that they appreciate that that they um they think that the way it's organized keeps people focused on those three things you know and we have also been very clear from the beginning that while there are many many many issues many that we all feel passionately about um what we're there for on Wednesdays is to focus on our immigrant neighbors to focus on the people who are in that building or coming in and out of that building and um we always read the key amendments of the Constitution after the speaking portion volunteers come up and read uh we turn the speakers around to face the building and remind the people who work there of what they are violating every day. And so that's always that's always part of it. So we've tried we have worked really hard and people have been for the most part pretty receptive to not bringing in other issues and causes um to this particular yeah um witness.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

That's great. That's great. I love hearing how it's so well organized and organized very closely towards the goal right that you're going for there and keeping people on track with that. Which is another piece of you know nonviolent practice right is being very intentional about what your goals are and what you want to see happen and really driving towards those goals even though there are plenty of other things that are worthy goals but to focus on the one in order to eventually hopefully achieve something around that goal. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

So it is you are playing a long game but um uh playing a long game in a very intentional way but also a way also I imagine you know there's not always the same group of people every week and so being having that consistency weekly allows new people to come in and and uh understand what they're coming into so which is also really um today we had a whole contingent of people who were there for the first time who came from western Massachusetts wow and I was like wow you guys drove in from western mass and the man I was talking to was like yeah I've been wanting to get here and uh someone in their organization like their community organizing group had a connection to the bearing witness community and then was able to kind of get them plugged in and they organized this whole carpool and came out here. So it is really and that's what inspires me is you know to keep doing it is that people um you know people are learning about it or joining it and um we all have to do the piece that we can do. Right. Um I think I I went to the anti-racism training that PSNE hosted a couple of weeks ago and one of the things that um Reverend Jermaine Ross Alam said was something about that uh we you know we can't do everything but right but we all have to do the part that we can do. Right. And that I he said it more much more much more eloquently than I did. But that was sort of one of my takeaways from from that day. And it gets you know yeah we get tired like and everybody gets tired at certain points. So that's when that's why doing these things in community um really makes a difference as well. Absolutely not something that we do alone.

Safety Rules And Nonviolent Discipline

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah yeah so the week this week the pillar of nonviolence number five is what's called avoiding internal violence of the spirit as well as external physical violence. So the second part is easy right like I don't I'm not somebody that engages in external physical violence. I it's not uh how I show up so it's easy for me not to engage in that because it's not something I'm drawn to but that internal violence of the spirit um is challenging for me sometimes I have to say you know I mean I do get angry and uh sometimes have very judgy feelings towards others um and that that internal barometer is such a challenge for me um that nonviolence of my own spirit and especially around this set of issues being married to an immigrant I find it really hard because I feel the attack is like inside my house um and uh towards my husband especially and so I'm curious how that shows up for you because like me you know you're a white woman who's in ministry but married to someone from Latin America and um and that's such a target right now. And so um you know how is that that piece showing up for you these days yeah um actually today uh the speaker was one of my fellow co-organizers Andrew Harris he's the minister at the Burlington United Church of Christ and his remarks were directly about about what you just raised about how do we deal with those he was speaking from himself for himself of course but like how do we deal with those feelings of hate and rage and anger that um that bubble up from such this deep seated place you know and he talked about how there is you know righteous anger can be a good thing you know that that that we need that to motivate us um to take action about things that we see that are unjust and um you know not in keeping with what we know and believe God to be about in the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

And he also you know talked about well how do how do we deal with it when you know that hate gets directed toward other people. Because he said something like you know I I hate these you know I hate these policies or I hate um you know we can hate things but he said and I really struggle with not hating the people right themselves. And you know it's it's interesting because as I shared we have had this small group of pro-ICE pro-Trump supporters who show up on a regular basis this one woman has a sign that says Jesus is my savior Trump is my president and I'm like I don't think that means what you think it means I I it's I really struggle with it. So one of the things that um and she yells horrible hateful things at us is on calling us um rapists, pedophiles, murderers um you know saying that we support letting uh you know the these vile criminals out there and um all kinds of just really hateful things about immigrants and then about us, you know, as the people who are there saying no actually immigrants are human beings who have the right to be treated as human beings with dignity and all of these things. So one of the things that I personally find to be very effective in countering my own anger towards her is we just have been singing like we just sing. We just sing I sang all like the whole time today through the megaphone we were singing things like we shall overcome and um we shall not be moved and freedom is coming you know all these this little light of mine that was what I was singing at the end of it was this little light of mine as people were walking back up toward the the ice building I forgot to say that that after about an hour or so standing there we line up on the side one side of the sidewalk and have a procession up to the the end of the district Ave which is where the ice building is located and then we stand along Mall Road which is a a busier more trafficked intersection and we hold our signs and stuff and so that was where I was singing this little light of mine um so singing for me is always has always been a refuge of sorts and has always um been something that I can go to and I just need to feel better about life life in general um but I find it to be a really effective counterbalance too um because you know and she's screaming horrible things at us and we're just singing back peaceful songs um that focus on on positive things it it drowns her out number one which is which was my main motivation for encouraging others to sing um but it also gives us something positive to say right so it's not like we're just screaming things back at her and so that's one of our you know one of the things that I I think I mentioned before that we remind people don't engage right like it's don't engage with that but singing over it is not really engaging with her it's just giving us something something else to do and yeah but but I still have those moments too where I really struggle with my own feelings of anger of internal hatred toward people and groups that I think are just doing the most vile and deplorable uh things and how they're treating other people um and I yeah I don't know that I've really grappled with it um until listening to Andrew's comments today and you raising this question thanks uh like what do you do with that what do you do with that um I mean I think part of it is just knowing that it's it's ultimately not within my control that there are some things that we have to give up and give over to to God and just say I can't I can't carry this I can't carry this anymore you know it's not mine to carry.

Pillar Five And Inner Violence

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Right so you all are not alone in that park every week right as where you're standing and you know that uh you know our faith says that we're never alone in those spaces um that God's spirit is with us the larger communities we represent are alongside us the staff witnesses are with us right and so um it's uh you know it also reminds me years and years ago I bring this up all the time I always tell people about this that years I heard ago I heard Peter Gomes who's passed away now but who is the chaplain at and um pastor of the uh congregation at Harvard and uh said he tells this story about you know just a pastoral story of being in ministry and a woman coming to see him one day having just found out that she has this terminal cancer and she's a young mom and uh has a small child and is just so angry, right? Very angry at God, very angry about uh this reality in her life and is saying to him what you know what do I do with my anger you know is sort of the pastoral question she presents to him and you know this anger that's coming out of this this deep well of grief that I fear, which is field, which is really where I think a lot of my anger is these days is really coming out of grieving so much. And uh and he said to her he said I always tell people to read the entirety of the book of Psalms because that has every human emotion is somewhere represented in that book right in in the Psalms and that you know so we know what he was saying to her was you know uh God has experienced all of these emotions before from God's people you're not going to be the first one that's gonna have a lot of things to say to God or that is mad or is angry. And so you can you know uh you can uh sort of rest assured that that's okay right and uh but it's it's that it's that twin piece around this pillar of nonviolence right you know you're working on your own anger and it's okay to be righteously angry because it's okay to be angry at things that are not acceptable and that are immoral or that are evil or that are harming people um or harming communities or harming creation right like it's okay to be mad about those things and uh uh dealing with the idea that you know you don't devolve into physical acts of violence as a result of it right and so um and and it also you know with other don't let it turn you inward right and yeah and just withdraw from it and say well there's nothing I can do about that you know so I think that's the other temptation that's um that we have when the world feels overwhelming and the world feels like there's just too much going on can be to just say okay that's not you know like I I can't I can't handle that um right and kind of pull back so right yeah how do we still engage yeah but not let the anger uh or hate not let the anger become this form of hatred that we can't see the other people we can't see the other side as humans right right because that's where yeah we can't turn away and and and that you're not there by yourself. I mean I think of that couple this as you started out the story of this vigil this weekly vigil that was there on their own because of their deep seated concerns but then all of these other people started showing up and it felt a little overwhelming but it also I'm sure uh was helpful to have others carrying that with you right yes that with you um and I also really bolsters you you know gone from two people to we've had over 900 people at at one of these events today we had about 500 wow so the weekly attendance varies based on whatever's going on with with the weather largely um and we've also yeah we've had some other challenges but it's usually a pretty good turnout so well and I also love that idea that you turn the speakers towards the ICE facility so that the staff inside can hear as you read portions of the constitution because um so often our anger is directed at people in um these positions who are doing these things and oftentimes um as we get to know them we find out they are also victims and at some level um sometimes and are struggling internally on their own. I I remember being at a a nonviolent action years ago and I was you know right face to face with a police officer um as we were you know saying what we were saying and um it was a very uh both sort of tense moment and very physically close moment. And under their breath I could hear some of the police officers saying the words with us so quietly. But they were working you know it's like they for whatever reason they were stuck where they were stuck to and um and that happens oftentimes you know is that eventually uh there sometimes is a churning with those who are enacting these things and engaging in these things. And so um it is uh uh it is interesting or whispering under their breath I've heard from clergy that have been in Minneapolis who are also in these face-to-face like almost nose to nose with with police that you get into and sometimes in these situations and um whispering under their breath I agree yeah I don't want to be here yeah trying to pay my bills you know something like that and so it's uh there is a power in continuing to remind those people and care about them enough to say um was we're we're not gonna vilify you right we're being vilified from across the street but we're not gonna engage in vilification but we are going to remind you of uh you know what you know what the rules are here right we're gonna I mean as federal employees this is these are the oaths that you've sworn to uphold you know to defend the constitution yeah and here's what the constitution actually says so right and and people going through the immigration process are gonna take that oath right you know yeah um it's interesting because many Of us who've grown up in the United States and were born here, um, if you haven't served in military service or in federal civil service, um, or you know, potentially in state civil service, you've never actually taken that oath, right? I don't think I've actually taken like read pieces of the constitution as an oath that is prescribed to me by law or that it is part of my job, certainly. But you know, we have oaths we take as as clergy, these ordination vows, members of our churches, but those uh I certainly agree with the constitution, right? You know, I am a citizen of this country and it is important to me. But um, but yeah, when you work in those agencies, you're taking that as an oath as you work.

Citizenship Oaths And Immigration Reality

SPEAKER_01 44:43

So well, and uh going through the naturalization process, yeah, exactly. With my spouse, I witnessed his naturalization ceremony, which was in 2016. It was right around Independence Day, it was like early July, and it was in Faniel Hall in Boston. Wow. So it was this historic building named after a slaveholder. Um, but it was really powerful to be in that space. So the family, you know, family members are uh invited to come, but we we had to sit in the gallery up above. And our daughter was only about I she must have been like, oh, she was little. Yeah, she was only like five, I guess. Um so she and I were up there in the gallery with like all these other family members, people from all over the world, and we're looking at, you know, we're looking for our people down there, you know, on the in the on the floor. Um, and that was a really powerful moment for me, you know. And then part of the naturalization ceremony is that uh people have to stand up and swear uh allegiance to the United States and the Constitution. Um, and I actually think it was probably more powerful for me than for Nelson. Um I agree. I think that's the way ours went too. Yeah, it was already a little like uh yeah, like yes, I don't know, but he wanted, you know, it was important for him to go through that because he wanted to be able to vote um in that very powerful election, that very momentous election we had in 2016. Um, I still remember being so excited with him the day that you know we went to vote together and everything, and really thought things were gonna turn out differently. But um, so I do remember that that ceremony very clearly. Uh, I found it to be a very powerful thing. And my mother is actually also a naturalized US citizen. Uh, so I went and witnessed her naturalization ceremony as well when I was I was either like an almost high school or an almost college graduate. I'm not sure exactly what year she did that, but it's it is a pretty it is amazing to go to those things.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

I've gone to a few with some church members over the years and people, but um, my husband's was not as uh his was just in a courthouse in the federal building in Newark, New Jersey. And um we went in for that final appointment that morning. And I remember the immigration officer said when we were done with the final appointment and he was approved, was you know, we have a swearing in this afternoon, you can go to that, or we have one in a few weeks if you want to wait and have family and friends come with you. And um, and he just said, I let's do it today. Let's just do it. I want to already there.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

There. And I think uh I know he didn't want to come back to the federal building ever again.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

That building was it's so hard to go to those appointments. I think people don't realize how hard it is to go in and out of those federal buildings all the time. And right those appointments and the toll that it takes on those that are working through the immigration process. And I think he was uh he was definitely uh tired and um at that point, and the building was traumatic to go into every time. He didn't want to come back. So um, so we went and got a sandwich and uh hung out for an hour or two and came back at 2:30. And he was sworn in. But it was the same thing. It was, you know, we they had us uh we were in a you know a courtroom in the building and the federal courtroom, and um uh you know, they had half of it cordoned off with a rope. And so, you know, all of us sat in the back and watched everybody in the front, and it was the same thing, it was um you know, people from everywhere that were in there, and um uh watching people from all over the world take that oath of citizenship was very powerful to watch. Yes. Yeah. So it is a it's a long process and it's a lot of work. And I think until you you've walked it, it's hard to know what it's really like and how much work it really is and um how much people go through to uh to do that. Uh you know, I I think those of us that are born in the United States, uh um, you know, we just have no idea until we're in the middle of it. Um, because you really there's no other way for you to see it otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Um people say, oh, just do it the right way, just come in the right way. Well, a lot of people come in the right way, and and even that takes them years. I mean, Nelson was here, he came in 1999, he became a citizen in 2016. Um, and that was, you know, we'd already been married for 10 years by that point. My mom came as a um a teenager with her family, uh, immigrated from Scotland, and she lived in the US for I don't know, probably 30, probably over 30 years as a you know, permanent resident green card holder until she decided to become a citizen.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

So right, right. Yeah, it is a long process. Yeah, yeah. And we have a neighbor who just became a citizen this fall and was gonna stay as a permanent green card holder, kind of like what your mom did for so long. But then with things changing so quickly, realized that was no longer safe. And so um had a very quick swearing in, but did it, and um uh really was so concerned for her safety that uh that's not that that's also sad to hear, right? That we've we have such a situation going on at this point that people are so afraid. Um it's uh, you know, that uh trying to find any kind of protection. And again, my neighbor's been here for the United States for many, many years. She's a labor and delivery nurse. Um you know, she's it's uh good friends of ours down the street. So it's a um it's an interesting moment that we're in and a very scary and troubling moment for our ministry. So yeah. So as we close out, just two questions, Trina. First is a quick, easy one. You know, if people want to come join you all, um, tell us like what time and where, and if they want to get more info, um, how to find out. Great.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Uh so it's bearing witness at ice. We have a website, bearingwitnessne.org. We should verify that.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

That's okay. We'll put it up on the uh in the show notes. I'll verify it.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

And we do also have a Facebook group that you can find if you search for bearing witness at ice. Um, we meet every Wednesday from 11 to 1 at 1000 District Avenue in Burlington, Massachusetts. And there are guidelines, guidance about where to park and how to um how to get there on the website. Great, great.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Well, um, I asked the same closing question for all these podcasts. So um there's a podcast I listen to that at the end asks their guests this question of what makes you optimistic and what outrages you, right? And uh so a good way of phrasing that as Presbyterians is like, where do you still see total depravity? And where do you see the Holy Spirit? Where's the challenge? Where's the hope?

Outrage Hope And How To Join

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah, that's a deep question. Um I mean, there are plenty of plenty of out, you know, the total depravity and outrage things uh every day. The most recent um outrage that related to ICE that I've I've been that I've read about is a Haitian man who was in detention and who died as the result of having an abscess tooth. He did not get medical treatment what medical treatment was not provided to him in the manner and expediency with which it should have been. And he died as a result of a tooth infection, which should never happen. Right, you know, um, and you know, other cases of people being abandoned, uh released from detention and abandoned and um who have also died because of that. So I think yeah, the man in Buffalo and and a woman in in Pittsburgh recently. So I I think that seeing how people are being treated with such a lack of humanity. And that stems from that stems from the rhetoric that we're hearing from the president on down that are dehumanizing people and that are normalizing you know, treating treating others this way. So that is uh that's where my outrage is is directed now. How and then you know, how do we stem that? How do we combat that and um be the voice that articulates what you know what I believe God and Jesus are about and came to teach all of us that you know it's really pretty simple, you know, it's really not that hard. Well, it is that hard, but it's a simple message to love your neighbor as yourself and to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God. I think those are the two texts that um are the cornerstone for me, like make up the cornerstone of my faith. Um and that I hope to be a witness of in the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Thanks, Trina. Thank you. Um, you give me a lot of optimism. I'm grateful for you, for your ministry, for your witness. Um, and I hope that for those who are listening, um, to imagine ways that they can also show up in their uh local community. We will uh link any of the things that we talked about today, the website, the information about how to show up if you'd like to in Burlington, um, and other resources will be in the podcast notes for this uh session. So thank you, Trina, for your witness. Thank you for the ministry. And thanks for being part of this uh little mini-series on nonviolence for Lent.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

And if anybody from PSNE is coming up, let me know.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Yeah, call me over there. Yeah, um, and we're just glad to uh chat with our friends over in Boston Presbytery, of course, and uh the sort of emerging uh shared ministry among our two presbyteries. So that's always a good thing to be about as well. So thanks so much, Trina, for being part of Connecting Our Conversations.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Thanks for hosting.