Connecting our Conversations
Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.
Connecting our Conversations
Reckoning with History: A Conversation with Dr. William Yoo
The PSNE's All-Presbytery Antiracism Training with Rev. Dr. William Yoo is coming up on March 1, 2025.
In this episode of Connecting our Conversations, Rev. Nancy Baseel and Rev. Kevin White chat with Rev. Dr. William Yoo about the PSNE’s upcoming Antiracism Training, where Dr. Yoo will be our keynote speaker. We talk a bit about Dr. Yoo’s historical work and how that intersects with the Church in our time and place, and get a preview of what we can expect at the training. Registration link below.
Dr. William Yoo is the Associate Professor of American Religious and Cultural History at Columbia Theological Seminary, where he is also the Director of the M.Div. Program.
He is the author of What Kind of Christianity: A History of Slavery and Anti-Black Racism in the Presbyterian Church (winner of the 2023 Award of Excellence from the Religion Communicators Council), and most recently Reckoning with History: Settler Colonialism, Slavery, and the Making of American Christianity.
“As a teacher, preacher, and scholar, Yoo focuses on the history of racism in American Christianity. He is a professor and public theologian who interprets the most challenging and urgent issues of racial justice with clarity, depth, honesty, and precision.” (WJK bio).
Dr Yoo has a deep commitment to researching, studying, writing about and engaging the histories of settler colonialism, racial injustice, and slavery through the lens of Christianity; and his work invites the alignment of the Gospel with the work of liberation through an honest assessment of the church’s role in these forms of oppression in the United States.
Rev. Nancy Baseel and Rev. Kevin White are the co-chairs of the Presbytery of Southern New England’s Antiracism and Equity Team. Rev. Nancy Baseel is the pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Hartford CT; and Rev. Kevin White is the pastor of Calvin Presbyterian Church, Cumberland RI.
PSNE Antiracism Training is Saturday, March 1 at New Haven Korean Presbyterian Church. Click here for the registration link.
Participation is open to anyone in the Presbytery!
This training fulfills the antiracism training required once every three years by the PSNE Antiracism Policy for all active Teaching Elders, Certified Ruling Elders, Inquirers and Candidates under care, and those engaged in Presbytery ministry service (serving on commissions, committees, teams, pulpit supply, etc – see page 5 of the policy).
Read the PSNE Antiracism Policy here.
the cloud, all right, so welcome everyone. I'm Reverend Nancy Basile from First Presbyterian Church of Hartford, where I serve as the pastor. I use she and her pronouns and I am here with my friend, reverend Kevin White, the pastor of Calvin Presbyterian Church in Cumberland, rhode Island. The pastor of Calvin Presbyterian Church in Cumberland, rhode Island, and this is Connecting Our Conversations. This is our podcast space for connecting conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us to deepen our discipleship. The Presbytery of Southern New England is a regional governing body of the PCUSA, the Presbyterian Church USA, so we are glad you're here joining us for this podcast this evening.
Speaker 3:Hello everyone, this is Kevin I use he and him pronouns. Nancy and I are also the co -chairs of the Presbytery of Southern New England's Anti-Racism and Equity Team and we are excited to bring you this podcast episode. It's as both a reminder of and a little promo about our Presbytery's upcoming anti-racism training on Saturday March 1st at New Haven Korean Presbyterian Church. One aspect of our Presbytery's anti-racism policy is that we will be holding these trainings annually. Is that we will be holding these trainings annually? And just a reminder to everyone listening that with our policy, anti-racism training is now required at least once every three years for all teaching elders in the Presbytery, those who are inquirers and candidates for ordination under care and anyone actually serving in a leadership role in the Presbytery, so folks serving on committees and commissions, those and those sorts of things. You can register for the training at psneorg I'm not sure if it's on the front page of that, but you can find it certainly under the teams link and just select the anti-racism and equity team and we will also see about getting a link to the registration in the show notes as well.
Speaker 3:And we are joined today by Reverend Dr William Yu William, I believe, is how he likes to be called and known. William will be our keynote presenter at this upcoming anti-racism training event, so we are excited to have you here with us right now.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, I am excited to be here. Yes, I do. I'm glad for us to go by first name basis. My name is William Yu. I've been teaching for roughly a dozen years at Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, georgia. It is one of our PCUSA, is one of our PCUSA seminaries. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm going to be as ready as I can.
Speaker 1:Nancy and Kevin, for the questions you have for me. Oh, they're so hard. Yeah, prepare yourself. I just want to highlight too, william, so all of our listeners know anyone who's joining us that you are also the author of what Kind of Christianity? A History of Slavery and the oh sorry, I lost the full title A History of Slavery and Anti-Black Racism in the Presbyterian Church. And most recently, I think just a couple of weeks ago, your second book came out, reckoning with History, settler Colonialism, sla slavery and the making of American Christianity. You have been busy. Both of these books were published by Westminster John Knox Press. Right, we understand, william, that you have a deep commitment to researching and studying and writing about and engaging the histories of settler colonialism, racial injustice, chattel slavery in the Americas through the lens of Christianity, and we feel that your work invites the alignment of the gospel with the work of liberation, with your honest assessment of the church's role in these forms of oppression in our country. So we welcome you. We thank you for connecting conversations with us country so we welcome you.
Speaker 1:We thank you for connecting conversations with us. Thank you, yeah, so we'd love to hear, just to get started, a little bit about you, who you are, what do you love, and maybe a little bit about your day job, what's your life like?
Speaker 2:And so, in addition to being a seminary professor, I am a spouse. My wife, sarah, teaches in Atlanta Public Schools and we are the proud parents of two children, teenagers 16 and 14, soon to be 17 and 14, and two cats. And so it's a busy household. And I'm also a minister, a member of Cherokee Presbytery, here in Northwest Georgia, within our denomination, the PCUSA, and I think one thing I would say is so I do think one error, certainly within American Presbyterianism, uh, in the past and I do think this, I hope, is more the distant past than the recent past is the notion that, uh, the presbyterian church, capital c, is the best one, that because of our calvinist doctrines and because of our theological sophistication and biblical interpretive acumen, we are the best denomination and the best church and the closest to heaven this side on earth.
Speaker 2:I think that is a wrong view and I think even our book of order in the foundations notes that we are not the best church, but we are a church seeking to be faithful among many churches, capital C. But, nancy and Kevin, what I would also say is that I do genuinely believe in the fullness of our past and our present and our future, awards and all, if you will, that which is inspiring and that which is infuriating about our past and the tradition that has been passed down to us. Nonetheless, I believe it is the best church for me not the best church period, and I think I believe probably for you too, nancy and Kevin. It is the best church for me and it aligns closest to my desire to enact God's justice, love, righteousness, mercy and kindness on earth with fellow believers who are similarly committed.
Speaker 1:So that's the first thing I would start when you're asking about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not the best church, but it is the best church for me and I do believe that there is a lot of good in us and that can be done through us. But I imagine, as we keep talking, you also and I I've written about and I studied that it's not all good, um, and how do we wrestle with that, which is bad?
Speaker 3:yeah, oh, that's a william. That's a great segue because, uh, I wanted to to ask you, uh, about, um, your your book, what, what kind of of christian? And maybe a little bit, if you could share a little bit about what led you to this work and how you came to research for what became this book. And, again, this is a book that we've been encouraging everyone that we can in our presbytery to read, so I'd love to hear a little bit just about how this book came to be.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, thank you, kevin. So initially I desired to write a book across I guess what we will call the academy for my students and my colleagues and peers who are studying church history, religion, theology and the like, but also that would be for churches, for people who are worshiping and living together in churches and pastors who are called to lead and direct these churches. And so it was. Initially I wanted to write a history of both racial justice and injustice, like how do we explain this history of racism? And then I narrowed it down to slavery, in part because I found it to be such an oxymoron, this notion, that there was a strong like a phenomenon of pro-slavery Christianity. I'm not the one who came up with that term, and it is actually well known in history. Go to any library catalog and type up pro-slavery theology, christianity, and you will get sadly right Nancy and Kevin Hundreds, if not thousands of hits For sure.
Speaker 2:Because, pro-slavery Christianity was a thing and it was what people of faith of several different Christian denominations held to the belief that slavery was divinely ordained. And from that, for readers of that book, in defending slavery it did require racism and the sense of it required the notion that God created some races to be superior than other races. That, in line with some of these white Presbyterian pastors and theologians, it was the idea that God did not create African Americans or Africans who were then forcibly transported to these shores to live among white people with the same capacities and abilities for freedom in our quote-unquote civilization. So, kevin and Nancy, I just really wanted to study where did that came from and how did that come to be. And I write in the book I just really wanted to study when did that came from and how did that come to be. And I write in the book.
Speaker 2:I found the strongest argument and the argument that I inherited and I learned and I will also say I did not learn very much about this at all. The little bit I did learn was that it was a problem of biblical interpretation. Problem of biblical interpretation. You see, the white Southern Presbyterian clergy and the white Northern clergy who quietly, or sometimes even more loudly, supported them. It is because they did not have the right tools to interpret the Bible, or it is because of biblical literalism. Yeah, and so that was. It was like a, it was a biblical interpretive problem. And so what that does, though, kevin and Nancy, is that it makes it it wasn't a moral problem then, or it was less. You know, it was less an economic problem, a cultural problem, a racial problem. The problem was they didn't read, get the Bible. They didn't read the Bible right, and what I will say to end this question, kevin, is what I found is that that is true. They did not read the Bible right.
Speaker 2:But, I wanted to know why, and I found that the answer had to be more than just literalism. It had to be more than that they were captive to for the pastors who are listening and informed ruling elders and others that they were captive to that Greek word, doulos. That meant servant or slave, and it was like that's were captive to that Greek word doulos that meant servant or slave, and it was like that's the reason why that that word was there.
Speaker 2:The Apostle Paul seems to endorse slavery, and and that's it Part of the world order.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:And so what I found is that they did come to that conclusion. But I wanted to know why, and I wanted to study what was going on racially, what was going on economically and politically and the like that there were concern, political concerns, about the union staying together. What if? What if we took more of an abolitionist position? What would happen to the southern states? What would happen to our economy, not just with agriculture in the south, but manufacturing in the north, where the cotton came from, and what happens with the cotton and where it goes? I hope that's a good answer, kevin, to kind of why I wanted to write that book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's great. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that, what if? Question? That can lead us to good places and that can lead us to constrict and turn inward, but it can also lead us to turn outward. What if things were different? What if we were working in a different way together?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great, you're right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's good, kevin. So what I will say to that real quick is that it's not only what if, kevin? That there were and I hope to point out in that book and in the book that just came out, there are actually strong, vociferous, powerful, smart, like energizing, inspiring Presbyterian abolitionists. Certainly there were Black Presbyterian abolitionists, like the formerly enslaved man James WC Pennington and others, but there were also white Presbyterian leaders who did have moral clarity and who understood, despite what the cost might be politically, culturally, economically slavery is an affront against God and it goes against God's creative order.
Speaker 2:Nancy, to your point, but this isn't. We don't live in an orderly world. We actually have inherited a disorderly, immoral world because of the transatlantic slave trade and it's what was ongoing in the 1830s and the like. So what I will say is that, yeah, it's not all bad. For example, in the book I note what is inspiring to me is that the American Anti-Slavery Society, founded in roughly 1833, 1834, by William Lloyd Garrison and other abolitionists, the executive, and it became the largest national abolitionist organization with big dreams to end slavery and racial discrimination, the executive committee and committee. That rings true to us as Presbyterians.
Speaker 1:We do genuinely believe God works in committees and plurality and discernment at least.
Speaker 2:And it might be more, but what I can verify, nancy and Kevin, six of the 12 founding executive committee members were Presbyterian, presbyterian clergy and lay leaders. Now, because of that, they were not very influential in the denomination but they were influential in the abolitionist movement. So I do think I point to that to say the problem wasn't reformed theology. The problem wasn't that they had inherited and were practicing a reformed theological approach that was like against like doing good in society, that was against faithful civic civil engagement. They were inspired. They were inspired by the liberative promises of Jesus Christ and counting the cost of discipleship. That's why they joined this executive committee when we're so passionate about abolitionism.
Speaker 2:So the problem wasn't reform theology. The problem wasn't necessarily Presbyterian polity Really like those weren't it? The problem was not anything inherent to reform their Presbyterian traditions. The problem was those individual Presbyterians who were complicit or actively participated in like slavery and other racial oppressions. They didn't do these things because they were Presbyterian or because they were reformed. They did these things that were evil because they had for one, they had some economic stakes in it.
Speaker 2:I was going to say yeah, yeah, certainly one, they had some economic stakes in it, I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, certainly.
Speaker 2:But two also, they opted for a more moderating, less courageous position to preserve not the purity but the peace and the unity of the church. They did make decisions and my point there is that I because kevin and nancy, I know I'm going on I will say before writing the book, when I told people what I was writing on, for many presbyterians I met in churches, that was their first impulse. You know, it's because of reformed theology, it is because we have inherited this kind of frozen, chosen civic passivity like human depravity. We don't really believe like we can do good and the world can change, like, and so that was so in the water and just what I found was that those were not the problems. Certainly we can, like, engage, how, sometimes not every. I don't want to make everything good about reformed theology and presbyterian polity, but what I want to say is that I don't see them as the primary culprits, if you will yeah of this horrible legacy sure, sure no did you?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's your second book, um, reckoning with history, build on some of the original. I know we, I from reading your first book. I know that you talked in detail and gave a really beautiful um, what's the word I want to say? Like you, you, in in great detail, you covered where Presbyterians were present in the abolition movements. Does reckoning with history take us into modern day? Tell, yeah, tell us a little bit about where, where that book carries on from your first book.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, thank you. Oh yeah, thank you, nancy, from your first book. Oh yeah, thank you, are related. Oh yeah, thank you, nancy. Um, so it is a. It is a more ambitious, ambitious book.
Speaker 3:Uh, maybe two, two all right at least two, kevin and nancy first one is ambitious, one is I will take scope right it does really cover American Protestant Christianity across several and all the major mainstream denominations.
Speaker 2:It is not a like one denominational, like history right way to put it. But it permitted me to really look at, for example, indigenous rights activism and the abolitionist movements more in full, because I wasn't looking at them to find who were the Presbyterians who were involved, I really was just looking at them and analyzing their moral, religious, theological and Christian arguments. So one thing I will say in both movements what is again refreshingly inspiring is that how much the opposition to the Indian Removal Act of 1830, that ultimately led to the sad and horrible tragedy of the Trail of Tears and the state where I reside, now Georgia, much of the opposition and activism for it drew on Christian resources, it drew on the Bible. Jeremiah Everts, who was a man, a lawyer, who became a leading kind of missionary agency executive, jeremiah Everts, with the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, which was founded by some Williams College graduates, some young men, in 1810, 1811, 1812. They sent lots of missionaries abroad. I think they were the first missionary organization to send missionaries to, for example, asia. I think some of you might know the Baptist, anne Hazeltine and Adirondack Judson, for example. Ok anyways. But yeah, he really believed through his work because then at that point they really did, maybe not quite as foreign mission, but they did understand mission to various indigenous nations as a kind of international might not be the right word, but transnational endeavor that they recognize that the Cherokees for word, but transnational endeavor that they recognize that the Cherokees, for example, were their own nation and so and it was mission work and the like. So again, it really is like this is the call of the gospel, that we are called, certainly as Christians in the United States, to oppose unjust laws and the abolitionist movement as well.
Speaker 2:Very inspiring because of how much in fact pro-slavery Christianity grew so much in response to the abolitionist movement. Real quick, yeah, I noted in what kind of Christianity as well. So I think and maybe I'll end this question this way I think we understand pro-slavery Christianity like going up on an incline or no, going down on a decline. That, yeah, a long time ago they didn't know any better in the 17th century, so they really believed that slavery was ordained by God. And then, as time went along and then the United States Revolutionary War became its own nation, there was more illumination and eventually it kind of declined and declined and it chipped away as they understood more, as they I think this is Maya Angelou as they knew better, they did better.
Speaker 2:But what I find is that's actually the inverse that initially there was a lot of there were not strong pro-slavery arguments, because there was something in the consciousness of colonists and early white Americans to say this is not right. We've inherited this and there are some challenges to emancipation in terms of how do we create a racially just society when there are already at that point in the 1780s, 90s, generations of enslaved black people. But it was really like many pastors didn't want to put their name on a sermon or on a treatise that actually used the Bible to rigorously defend slavery. But what happened is the abolitionist movement got really good at appealing to like Luke, chapter four, got really good at looking at Jubilee and the Old Testament this is the white Quaker, angelina, emily Grimke and they kept making arguments from the Bible to say slavery is wrong and we should be for abolition. So what that demanded and required was an equally like, rigorous, strong Christian response.
Speaker 2:Right, and so sadly, nancy and kevin, where did wealthy enslavers and enablers of slavery turn to? Hey, the abolitionist movement is really drawing on the bible and christian resources. You know who needs to defend this for us. It is the clergy pastors. Who else but pastors can actually like provide retorts when Frederick Douglass and William Lloyd Garrison keep appealing to our Christian Bible? So in that way I know I'm a little off, nancy and Kevin.
Speaker 2:It is to note that, and again for me what I would say Nancy and Kevin, is that it does not excuse what happened, but my purpose is I want to explain what happened and that it wasn't like this, like, oh, they believed in the curse of Ham from Genesis 9, or they believed in the doctrine of discovery. Those papal bulls from the late 1490s that divided in some ways evangelization and colonialism from the Roman Catholic Church between Portugal and Spain, and I think we've learned some about the doctrine of discovery curse of Ham. Like I just don't think that these things that were inherited fully explain what happened. I think, like I'm sharing with you now it is to look at the quotidian or the ordinary. Like again, I'm not trying to get these white pastors who defended slavery off the hook, but Nancy and Kevin, we can understand. Let's say, you or I are in a church in 1840 in my state of Georgia. It is like what are the parishioners demanding of me?
Speaker 1:Like they are like yeah, we know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are the war? What? Certainly what can't I say. I think we know that, kevin and nancy.
Speaker 2:But my point in studying the history is actually, again, not to defend it and excuse it. It was and I write it in Reckoning with History. It was a viable pathway to ministerial success and, I'm sad to say, a bigger church, right. How does one get into a bigger church? It is, one acquires a reputation as a public intellect who is a skilled defender of slavery. And what does it require to is a skilled defender of slavery? And what does it require to be a skilled defender of slavery? It does require getting really good at white supremacy from a Christian perspective and making racist arguments.
Speaker 2:And so it is sad that, kevin, your point about the what if? Like I write in that book look, the greatest tragedy of slavery are the destroyed dreams and livelihood and abuses toward enslaved people, women, men and children. But I do think a lesser tragedy is how it destroyed the morality and the theological work of generations of white clergy and theologian, these bright men who were really smart. They are sophisticated men who wrote like, really like, again, it's like weird, right. They wrote really like, smart, immoral arguments from the Bible to defense.
Speaker 2:They had an answer for every abolitionist critique. You've got this verse, I've got that verse. Sure, so right, kevin and Nancy, I think what would have happened if they could have actually been free to preach and write without.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but again, that's not the greatest tragedy. But again, in talking with you and I hope what I'm getting at is that, like, I hope that this is the work and the conversation that we can have together yeah, right, I will say, like kevin and nancy, I'll ask you all. I think a generation ago, and maybe it's still true now I think one big challenge to anti-racism and racial justice is we need to talk about it. No one wanted to talk about it. I do think now there is more openness and willingness to talk about it, so we're making progress. But what I also want to say, kevin and Nancy, is that the next step to me is we need to talk better about it.
Speaker 2:In Reckoning with History, I write like we should prioritize responsibility and repair over guilt and shame. Yeah, I don't think you and I and this is I get this from the Pequot Massachusetts minister William Appes in 1835 and 36, when he speaks before white audiences in Portsmouth, new Hampshire and Boston, massachusetts. He says you and I are not guilty for our fathers and I'll use the word ancestors' crimes. Like we're not guilty. We should give thanks that we are not guilty for the sins of those who live before us. But he also points out, we are responsible to repair the inherited mistakes that we've given.
Speaker 2:His point in 1835 is we still live in a messy world of settler, colonialism and slavery. We're not guilty for their sins, but we are responsible to repair this world that god is calling us to, and that's my hope for us. And when I meet you all, like I don't, I don't. I think history has been misused to induce guilt, but I also think history has been misused to induce guilt, but I also think history has been misused to conceal sin.
Speaker 3:Like all of it.
Speaker 2:So how do we have a better conversation? And I'm curious, Nancy and Kevin, how you all kind of understand all of this work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love your the language of responsibility as opposed to guilt and and shame, as you were talking a little bit ago. I was thinking one, and even just hearing this little synopsis from you just now. But certainly, reading the book and I'm looking forward to reading Reckoning with History too is, on the one hand, hearing your perspective on it. There's a warning, I think, for us in our time right, when are we in danger? Where might I be making the same mistake that those pastors in the 17 and 1800s did? For, you know, in those small decisions that seem like well, all right, you know, in those small decisions that seem like well, all right, I'll, I'll, I'll, kind of you know, just for the sake of today, you know, but then those, those, they, they grow.
Speaker 3:So there's kind of that warning, but there's also in in hearing you talk about history and that it wasn't inevitable, which on the one hand, I can look back and just it's heartbreaking of, because you're what could have been. But that also means that we can make different choices. Now, right, if we look back and say different choices could have been made, then it wasn't inevitable. There's a tragedy in that, but there's also a hope for us. Now we can look back and say but we can make courageous choices now, because that's the responsibility and I actually find I find a lot of hope in in that that I can make what is the responsible, good, loving choice. I can make courageous choice today, not not even tomorrow or the next day, but today. And then how will that build on tomorrow and so on. So yeah, I don't know, nancy.
Speaker 1:We are trying to decolonize our presbytery.
Speaker 1:We are trying to decolonize ourselves and our churches and to like. I think one of the most valuable things that came out of my particular congregation's reading of your book was conversations about the forms of colonization that we participate in on a regular basis, because it helped us sharpen our skills at identifying those places of power, imbalances and oppression that we're living with now, and learning about the history of that enabled us to put to see through a new lens that felt more honest and true. My particular context is a little different from Kevin's and so far as my churches, um, uh, the greatest percentage of our churches, um, people who've come from other countries, who were raised with Presbyterianism as a form of of the spiritual form of colonialism. Um, so they were Presbyterianism was forced upon the ancestors of many of the congregants of my church, but now they claim it in 2025 for themselves and their children, and they come to this church on purpose, knowing the history of how it was received. Um, and there are people who want to do that with conversation, with lament, with honest, open eyes about how the rubber is hitting the road for them as Presbyterians in this era.
Speaker 1:So your book has helped our church a ton to have those conversations and we're really excited to continue at the training. I'm aware of our timing here and so I want to. I know I'm like I've been asked. Crescent Terry, we are so grateful for our time with you and we want to just invite you to share very briefly what you think would be your hope for our gathering together on March 1st when we are in our training. That's the we decided before the podcast started the training's kind of a funny word our convening of this conversation. What are you, what do you sort of hope for or imagine for that day as you join the Presbytery of Southern New England for a conversation about anti-racism work in the church? Oh yeah, thanks, nancy about anti-racism work in the church.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, thanks Nancy and thanks Kevin. What do I? I think one is I am excited to talk with you and be among you.
Speaker 2:As joyful as it is to write books and certainly the affirmation to talk with people who've read it, it is a process of a book. It is not dialogical and it is not organic and it does not leave a lot of room for mutual discernment. Discernment, whereas I do think I'm excited to get on a plane and be with you all for those reasons that where we can work with creativity, be open to the spirits prompting and leading and have good, sometimes hard and painful, but ultimately like productive conversation. And I'll end, nancy and Kevin, with saying I hope we can gather to do the work of healing divides, healing the many things that divide us, so that ultimately we can move towards agreeing and working together, while also recognizing that it is an ongoing process, that to get to mutual agreement and discernment also does have some disagreeing, but I guess for me I don't know I don't want us to fight about the past, I don't want us to fight about critical race theory and DEI and all of these things, what I do want us to fight about.
Speaker 2:If we're going to fight, it's like fight about what we're going to do, because all of us want the same thing we want to enact God's justice. We want different congregations that were called to different things, but, like we want to figure out how to like struggle and how to learn from one another to do that, I'd rather disagree about what to do rather than like what we believe. Maybe we can get a little closer on the what we believe part.
Speaker 1:Right, that's a really good point, and when we gather on the 1st we'll have some breakout sessions during which we will sort of get a sense of what people want to do and maybe some healthy disagreement about wrestling with that question.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 1:We're so grateful for your time and excited that you'll be with us in under a month, on March 1st, for the Presbytery of Southern New England's anti-racism gathering.
Speaker 1:This year we're going to be at the New Haven Korean Presbyterian Church.
Speaker 1:For anybody who's listening and hasn't registered yet, we'd love for you to join us and recognize that the deadline for registration is on February 21st, because we need to give our host church some time to prepare the delicious food that they've agreed to prepare for us.
Speaker 1:As an added bonus, I want to mention, too, that William will be with my church in Hartford the church that I serve in Hartford the following day, leading worship at First Presbyterian Church in Hartford, and Westminster Presbyterian Church, which is our neighbor church just four miles down the road, will also be joining us that day. They will not have worship in their sanctuary that day, but they'll instead come to First Pres Hartford and we are going to enjoy a time of worship, joyful time of worship, singing communion, hearing the good word from you, william, and afterwards, hopefully, having some direct one-on-one conversations about where people are after this prayer weekend together. So I think, in all anticipation, to choose this church to be the one where you will share your insight and wisdom and all that you have acquired in your time of study and learning as a person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm jealous. I'm going to be heading back to Rhode Island on Saturday. I wish I could be there with y'all. William, again, thank you for being willing to give us a little teaser, a little promo, about what to expect. One of the questions we were going to ask you was just what excites you about this work, but having just now spent the past half hour or so, the answer seems to be everything your excitement about all of this the history, the theology and then just the heart for the church to really be the church that God intends.
Speaker 3:It's awesome to see. It's infectious.
Speaker 3:So, that's a great teaser for anybody listening to register and come on out. So again, William, thank you for your time tonight and thank you in advance for your time that weekend of March 1st and 2nd, and once again, this has been Connecting Our Conversations the Presbytery of Southern New England's podcast space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us to deepen discipleship. We look forward to seeing everyone on March 1st and until then, from myself and Nancy and William, grace and peace be with you all. Bye.